About skillsharing, networking, community live and "free love"...
After we had visited the Gasser school (next post)
we accidently came across a presentation of the Z.E.G.G.-community in the Schloss Glarisegg:
2 people that are living in the "Zentrum für Experimentelle GesellschaftsGestaltung" (centre of experimental society creation) in Belzig near Potsdam (that exists since 1991 and is one of the biggest communities in Germany)
were telling the Glariseggers (and us!) about their experiences with community live in the last 17 years...
skillsharing as it should be - and we were surfing it :-)
What was quite interesting to me is that the roots of Z.E.G.G. community
(and it's sister community Tamera in Portugal that we are propably goin to visit later on our tour)
are here in Steckborn, where the "spirit fathers" and founders of those two projects lived in another community before (that went through the media as a strange "sect" and was quite known for this).
Moreover - as the Glarisegger told - the community of Glarisegg maybe would never have come into being without the community experiences of the people in Z.E.G.G. and Tamera.
So we felt it was quite an important and inspiring meeting taking place there
and hopefully the beginning of a friendship in between two communities that are so connected in their histories anyhow.
The main idea that is connecting the 'bout 80 people living in the Z.E.G.G.
is mostly the wish to experiment with different forms of loving and with nonviolent forms of comunication - and creating peace in this way by working on themselves and raising consciousness...
A grand part of the conversation with the people of Glarisegg was circling around the topic of "free love" and around how people in the Z.E.G.G. are living it - propably as it is a theme that is interesting for everybody and that you don't get to talk about a lot in "outside world"...
To prevent misunderstandings: "free love" doesn't mean that having sexual relations with more than one person is a dogma in the Z.E.G.G. - even though it was more like that in the beginning of Z.E.G.G, but people there learned from their experiences
and found out that there is thousand ways of loving
and that everyone has to find for him/herself the way that feels good for him/her.
"Free love" just means that everybody is free to chose his/her form of loving freely,
from not having any sexual relations at all, monogamic relationships to having several relationships at the same time
and that people try to support each other in their relationships and loving without judging over the form of loving...
They said that this form of loving and living feels much more "normal" than most of the people who don't know it might think: open communication about sexuality and problems coming up in relationships help a lot - that's the same thing in monogamic and polygamic relationships.
"If there is no peace in love, there cannot be peace on earth... "
They also said that the ways of how people live their love and relationsships in this society mirror the big problems of human history:
people believe in possesing people they love in they same way as they believe in possesing land and other ressources... wanting to keep control about everything and for that reason coming up with "moral", laws, borders, wars ...
To confront yourself with letting go of your fears to loose somebody (something)
and to realise that you do not in general loose someone (something) just because you share with others
can help to raise consciousness about what is happening on this planet
and how we could live something else...
Most important in this (long and difficult) process of changing one's mind is to speak with others about the problems coming up,
so that information can float freely through all the relationship-networks and there is transparency about the feelings of all people that are involved...
Interesting topic -but well, let us come back to the meeting and Z.E.G.G. in general:
The Glariseggers and Z.E.G.G.ers were also talking a lot about organisational questions, like what forms of organisation people in Z.E.G.G. chose, how about finances, etc ... :
Most of the people in Z.E.G.G. are working outside of the community and similar to Glarisegg they also have a seminary and guest business going. We did not talk about self-sustainibility.
There are some "leaders" in the working groups, which is the people that engage most or have most skills about something. The people normally decide together who wants to and whom they want to be in charge of something.
Organisation structures are changing from time to time, but at the moment it is like this:
There are
*working-group meetings (like the cooking-groups meetings, etc),
*"forums" (where you have a platform to talk about things you want to promote, like new ideas etc or emotional things) and
*"plenums" ( to decide in concensus about important topics that cannot be decided about in smaller circles)
When you are living with 80 people, you cannot always be in contact with everybody
and know how everybody is going, so normally the people you are sharing your flat with or the groups are the people you know best and you got to do most with.
There are various forms of communication in the Z.E.G.G. , from group meetings to emails... to keep transparency about all the processes going on
To get a community member in the Z.E.G.G. doesn't need as much money as in expensive Switzerlands Glarisegg community, but about the same time and process:
You do an introduction course of 5 weeks, then you can stay there for up to a year as a guest to see how it feels for you and the community. After this time you can become a full community member.
There would be space for up to 20 or 25 more people in the Z.E.G.G. buildings.
There are about 10 children in the Z.E.G.G., for whom the parents don't have to pay rents and food, but those costs are carried by all the community.
One of the last topics we talked about was the relation in between Z.E.G.G. and Tamera, which is still strong even though there is some "family fights" every once in a while...
People from Tamera are always welcome in the Z.E.G.G. and the other way round.
As we already had contact with people from Tamera also,
I am right now really curious about how this community looks like.
---Anja
Monday, October 20, 2008
Z.E.G.G. @ Glariseg
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10 comments:
Hi,
it is nice to collect experiences and to get different perspectives of life - thats your idea with that tour. Thats why I feel responsible to make you aware of negative things around this communities tamera and zegg. You only mentioned it as a sect, but it is not really clear what you mean with this (you could see mainstream society also as a giant sect..). A generellproblem with this communities is, that they are ideologicly dominated by thinkers called Dieter Duhm and sabine Lichtenfels. those people advertised sexist anti-feminist theories about realtionsship between man and women and try to cover it as an emanzipatoric way to save the world (very esotherik style). It is very disgusting what I read from them, but you can make your own picture...
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/senate/5214/eso.html
best wishes and a critical view and open heart!
--- bine
I feel very strange with you writing so noncritically about the Z.E.G.G. and the way you make advertising for them. Z.E.G.G. spiritual leaders Duhm and Lichtenfels are wellknown for their sexistic, misogynous ideology. For example wrote Lichtenfels about rapes that the main problem is that the women wouldn't enjoy it - instead to say "no, i don't want it" they would have to say "yes, i like it". - which inhuman way of thinking. Duhm has been convicted because of sexual abuse. There is much more to read about the Z.E.G.G. if you go around with open eyes. To call them a sect plays down the meaning of their ideology.
The Z.E.G.G. community never distanced itself from its former leaders and their ideology.
Furthermore the Z.E.G.G. ideology describes a shortened cricism of society - summarized it says that all problems in the world can be reduced to inhibited sexual intercourse and that abolishing the sexual compunction of people, especially of women, will save the world. It fades out the influence of patriarchy and other kinds of dominance and power. It makes the complex mechanisms of the world easier than they are. That a direct result of this ideology was that women in the Z.E.G.G. society had to be opener to the sexual wishes of the dominant men is faded out, too.
If you like to get an impression of the Z.E.G.G. from critical view you can visit (only German language - sorry) pages like:
http://www.projektwerkstatt.de/gender/texte/zegg_heteronormativ.html
http://www.projektwerkstatt.de/zitate/z_kommunen.html#zegg
One quotation from Lichtenfels in German language:
Sabine Lichtenfels, "Der Hunger hinter dem Schweigen" (S.77 ff.):
"Solange die Frau kein positives Verhältnis zum Sex hat, solange sie nicht annimmt und bejaht, daß sie ganz wesentlich aus Sex besteht, purem Sex, solange sie hier ihre Verantwortung nicht sieht, sondern dem Mann die Regie und Verantwortung übergibt, solange wird sie nie aus ihrem Schuld-Dilemma austreten können. Fast alle Frauen wehren sich immer noch gegen ihre sexuelle Grundnatur. Hier liegen ihre Scham und Verurteilung sich selbst gegenüber. Der eigentliche Vorwurf der Frau an den Mann heißt nicht: Du benutzt mich ja nur als dein Objekt! Das ist der Vorwurf, der aus der größten Verdrängung erwächst. Der eigentliche Vorwurf heißt: Warum tust du es nicht endlich? Warum tust du es nicht endlich ganz? Ich will dein Lustobjekt sein. Viel mehr, als du glaubst. Wenn nur ein Mann dies ganz verstünde! Erst dann fühle ich mich ganz gesehen und erkannt als Frau. Erst dann fühle ich mich erweckt. Da, wo er mich ganz zu behandeln versteht als "sein Stück" ohne Gewalt und ohne Verachtung, erst da trifft und berührt er mich ganz. ...
Um es pathetisch zu sagen, im Sex erst liegt meine eigentliche Würde als Frau. Die Würde der Frau hat immer ein Loch. ...
Warum erkennt und akzeptiert der Mann es nicht, daß mein Leib ganz und gar nach dieser elementaren, objektiven, rein materiellen Erfüllung schreit? Dementsprechend möchte er gepflegt, bedient, behandelt und voll benutzt werden."
i thougt about it a bit longer and i must say that i am disappoited. I am sure that I already talked with you before abot these kind of ideologies and why it is necessarry to be critical with this and not spreading their repressive ideas. Cause it is wrong just to delete this posting (I am against censorship), it is important to discuss it and to read a position from you about this. especially if will go to tamera like you wrote...
--bine
hey guys
I wrote this article just from the point of view I have,
I never visited Z.E.G.G and don't know a lot about it... the impression I had there from the 2 people I met in that place was positive and reflected.
I didn't ask them about their position towards these "gurus" or whatever...
What I do is I am trying to find out what moves people, and look at what I see in a as neutral as possible way...
We will see how Tamery feels like
even though there it will be propably the same like in Glarisegg, we will not have that much time to really get to understand everything happening there
I think it is very important that this discussion is here, what else can we do? people got to find out themselves in the end
what we tried to do in Glarisegg is critisize (in this case mostly the commercial behaviour), but not be destructive, feel why the people are behaving like this and try to find solutions...
I think just that we were there brought lots of input and inspiration to this place...
just to say "this and that place and this and that people are bad and we shouldn't do promotion for them" cannot be a solution
I try to see positive aspects -that are there and that are true - and if there is things to critisize I will! but it is never a solution to only talk about the negative sides of something... it is about seeing both!
i would pretty much appreciate to read blog articles from different tour members, not only from one, thats what i thought while reading this article...
and i think you're right anja, it makes no sence to walk big circles around everything with a bad reputation... i only think if you write articles like this you should make pretty much sure not to advertise through the way you write, because to me the article felt pretty much like "hey cool, you should all visit..." - not so extrem but it did... so, you said you wrote the article from your personal perspective, perhaps thats the fault with such a vaxed topic...
see you,
andi
hehe, i really want to fall into the trap:
the german quote, falk mentioned was based on the idea, a woman feels as woman, when she is totally used by a man, during sex. being used without any violence or hate, but being 'his own piece'.
Hm. I like the idea. To let one 'be completely yours' might seem to one as a kind of pure love.
What else would you let be yours, than something you love?
And in fact, gendertheoretically, this opens the window:
It's easy, to design a game, where you and your partners use each others and are used by each others.
So maybe the quotation's author's 'problem' is this: She feels as a 'real woman', that is, she want's to be used as a woman.
Personal fetish, i don't want to doom that.
But there is a more general idea, I can see underlying:
The people who talk like 'Sabine' maybe want to criticise, that popular, emancipatory, well educated, maybe left oriented beings tend to ignore the fact, that their body want's to have the pleasure of possessing and being possessed and perhaps many other feelings that i consider as natural not because of the fact, that they have been there for a long time, but, as they ARE there and everything that is here can be accepted, understood, used and then thrown over by decision.
I don't want to take any position in this context :)
Hi "Anonymous"!
I don't like statements saying "this is a fact" about social issues. People are influenced by their socialization, I see (believe) no hints that there would be a "nature" of humans. It differs depending on experience, society, education and much more. So I don't like you to say that it would be a "fact" that bodies want to have the "pleasure of possessing and being possessed" (I like to disagree that it can be stated in general as a "pleasure"):
1. I think there is no "nature of human beings", it is (nearly) all socialized.
2. "Bodies" are bodies and have no feelings, so they can't feel pleasure. You're mixing body, mind, biochemical processes between body and brain. To divide body and psyche is problematical because they are interacting with eachother.
3. Furtherwise I have to object your general statement about feelings of possesing because I don't feel so. I don't want to posses other people and I don't want other people to posses me.
Your first paragraph emphasizes the need to object: you talk about two kinds of sex as if there were nothing else (men and women), that is binary thinking; you talk about men and women so like sexual contact would be best and right between these "two" kinds of sex, this is wide behind the effords of the movements to free sexuality from such homophobic ideas; you make general statements about facts which are no facts, nobody has a monopol of truth, even not you.
People using fetish (like possesing games) to feel sexual satisfied is a strongly other thing than to give general ideologies about how humans "are".
What idea of "pure love" do you have that you think to be possed or to posses could be the fulfilment of this term. For me it sounds horrible, what you describe is not love like I understand this, for me it's possessivity. I don't want to posses what I love, and I don't believe in the love of a person who wants to posses.
So far
Falk
some other topic...
You write:
"Free love" just means that everybody is free to chose his/her form of loving freely,
from not having any sexual relations at all, monogamic relationships to having several relationships at the same time
and that people try to support each other in their relationships and loving without judging over the form of loving...
This sounds like a nice definition for "free love", but in practice thats often different. People who think that they are on the right way often also belive their way is better than the others... i fear that's human...
well, when i read further down in your article about stuff like "accepting that sharing doesn't loosing could raise conciousness" i fear that without judging over the form of loving... is not so easy if you try to legitimate how you do it...
i think "not judging" means more than saying "you're free to do what you want", but on the other hand beliving the own way is better or right...
not judging and letting everyone make his own decision about his form of relationship means not to be convinced that the own way is the right one...
So it means not to say "choose your own way" but meaning "hopefully you'll find the right (my) way"
i don't really want to accuse you of doing so, but i think many people who are them selves sure about their free love stuff don't _really_ accept stuff like monogamous relationships... for me i found out that those "free love people" really often share the opinion of "everyone should handle this like that"
i can understand that from the view of "love should be really free" it can be sad if someone you like or love decides not to live multiple relationships, but "cages" her- / himself into a relationship with one single person, and i also think people should stop wanting to possess one another, but free love would mean to really accept and support this, and that, to repeat myself, stop beeing so certain about your way of doing it... or at least not pretend to not judge, and being so tolerant...
sorry for repeating myself...
see you...
andi
Hi Falk:
:cite
1. I think there is no "nature of human beings", it is (nearly) all socialized.
2. "Bodies" are bodies and have no feelings, so they can't feel pleasure.
:cite_end
This is exactly, what i am talking about. I wrote this, because i know, that in well educated circles, people react allergic on some things, but this keywordrelated filtering of information doesn't help, i think, understanding, reality.
Okay, here is what we both, maybe, think:
There is no godgiven nature, because everything is developing not at least under our own influence.
Therefore (i think, hunger and freezing are more socially learned feelings, than lust???) we don't have lust in our bodies.
BUT: We can.
There is the possibility, to have needs like that.
AND there is the possibility to see and love to powers, instead of one. Call them man and woman or whatsever.
What i was writing about, was not (please read again and correct me, if needed), sex between a person with a dick and a person with a pussy (sorry), but two people that both can have 'male' and 'female' feelings (or 100.000 other named ones) and all of these feelings, when respected, make them happier, than, when they neglect them.
falk, you seem right, in sociology, there is not fact.
but under empirical view, you might agree, that 'a lot' of the probands in a given probe will have feelings like, they wanna possess somebody or want to be possessed, maybe linked together in a wonderful game, called relationship, love or what.
I think, it's more dangerous, to be afraid of any feelings and directions, than of speaking for those, that might play an important role in opression (which i think is the reason, why 'possessing' and 'being possessed' seems like 'killing' and 'being tortured just for the power of male patriarchism')
Feel free to feel free.
I feel very sorry that at the moment I don't have the time to read all of this
but just two answer on two or three things...
first things first
@andi: if you can get more people to write articles, please do... I am travelling with them and it is impossible up to now... it takes them 2 weeks to write 3 sentences...
@anonymous:
first about the wish to be possessed: for sure it is a sexual fantasy that is quite common - but isn't it maybe only a way of dealing with the situations you encounter in daily life all the time? really wanting to live to the extreme to get into ecstasy and trance with something that you are forced to live all the time - which maybe wouldn't be so if you were not?
and about "the right way of loving":
me myself I am living an open relationship since about 2 years and didn't really chose it in the beginning but felt like I could arrange with it.
so I started also to not live monogam and have several relationships.
Still I wouldn't suggest it to anybody that I don't really feel he can also live with it, as it is hard work.
I one time suggested to somebody I love who I also had sexual contact with (that I really did not want to losw, believe me) to go back in normal relationship with somebody else that he was interested in - as I felt it is not good for him to live polygamic. In this moment when I told him this I felt what love really means (-to me at least)
What I write is personal experience mixed with quoting from the talk that we had in Glarisegg.
Please don't generalize just because you met people who think in adifferent way than I do and that also these people I was talking to seemed to have.
Just take my experience as one real way, talk to other people maybe or try to make own experiences if you do not want to believe me... but I lived and I felt it...
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